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Published on:

16th Jun 2026

Trading ETFs and Sports Cards: A Parallel Conversation

From Lake Tahoe, Zephyr market strategist Ryan Nauman welcomes back Lance McGray, Managing Director and Head of ETF Product at Advisors Asset Management (AAM), to compare today’s booming ETF landscape with the exploding sports card market. They discuss record ETF growth, lower barriers to entry, and how an influx of new and exotic products can create “noise” for investors—much like chasing rare pulls in hobby boxes. McGray emphasizes discipline, due diligence, and focusing on strategies with longevity, including ways to evaluate active ETFs with limited live track records through conversions or composites. The conversation also covers how marketing drives attention, why relationships and education matter, and AAM’s focus on income generation, dividend sustainability, and avoiding dividend cutters using free cash flow as a key lens.

00:00 Welcome and Setup

01:28 Meet Lance McGray

02:28 Lance Background and AAM

05:21 Sports and Investing Converge

06:32 ETFs vs Sports Cards

10:57 Noise and Gambling Risks

12:01 Discipline and Game Plan

13:45 Spotting ETF Longevity

14:53 Active ETFs and Track Records

20:32 Singles Doubles Approach

24:37 Marketing Hype and Relationships

30:50 Long Term Qualities Income Focus

35:06 Favorite Cards and Wrap Up

36:45 Where to Learn More

37:21 Final Thanks and Outro

Connect with Ryan Nauman:

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Ryan Nauman Zephyr: Hello, everyone,

and welcome to Zephyr's Adjusted for Risk

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podcast from the shores of Lake Tahoe.

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I'm Ryan Nauman, the market

strategist here at Zephyr.

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And while chatting with my next guest

about the influx of new ETF issues and

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some of the new exotic ETF products, um,

and wondering, asking him if these new

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ETF products are set for the long game.

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He made a very interesting comparison.

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He compared the ETF

environment to sports cards.

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Of course, I thought it was very

interesting comparing, uh, the ETF

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market to sports cards, as sports

cards, particularly baseball cards,

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are a very hot topic in my household.

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Well, my next guest, he's gonna share

some very interesting insights about the

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two and bring the two together in a very

interesting way But first, today's episode

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is sponsored by the award-winning Zephyr,

which helps investment professionals

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make more informed investment

decisions on behalf of their clients.

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All right, enough from me.

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Let's go ahead and bring

on the star of the show.

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I'm very honored and excited to welcome

back for a second time Lance McGray.

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Lance is the managing director and head of

ETF Product at Advisors Asset Management.

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Lance, thank you so much for

coming back on the show again.

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That first conversation we had about a

year and a half ago or so was fantastic.

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It's an honor to have you back on.

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Glad I didn't scare you

away after the first one.

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Um, can you please tell us a

little bit more about yourself

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and Advisors Asset Management?

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Lance McGray Advisors Asset Management:

Yeah.

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Well, Ryan, you know, it's always,

it's always good catching up with you,

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whether it's on your podcast or some

of the, uh, the ETF industry events.

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You know, it's always, it's always

a blast catching up with you.

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So, thanks for the invite.

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Um, I will always accept and,

uh- … certainly look forward to it.

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You know, it's not too often you can

say, "Oh, let's talk about ETFs and

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sports cards," and, you know, if you

wanna go down that road, I'm, I'm always,

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uh, always able and willing to talk.

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So, thank you again.

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Um, so for, for your viewers, um, you

know, just to give you a high-level

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background on myself, you know,

obviously sports is very close to,

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to who I am and what I've done.

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I was a Division 1 golfer.

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Um, and you know, because of that,

I always thought I was gonna end

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up in the golf industry, you know.

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Maybe not a tour pro, but a

club pro or teaching pro or…

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And if it didn't work out

in the golf industry, you

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know, stay in sports somehow.

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But, you know, after grad school,

I realized, you know, the, uh, the,

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the money in the sports industry at

that time was, wasn't too flattering.

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And, uh, I was very fortunate to, to get,

uh, exposed to the financial markets.

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Um, I was fortunate after grad

school to start with a, uh, fairly

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prominent hedge fund in Greenwich,

Connecticut out of college.

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Um, and I spent a number of years

there, learned a lot about the industry.

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It was a $3 billion

relative value hedge fund.

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Um, and unfortunately, in 2008, 2009,

like many hedge funds, we closed up.

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Um, so not surprising,

um, I had to make a pivot.

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I had the ability to, to join a

startup hedge fund also by the same

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founders, um, or, uh, do a complete

180 and go into the world of ETFs

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with a former colleague of mine.

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And, you know, I'm happy to report,

you know, that was almost 20 years ago.

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Um, I've been in the

ETF business ever since.

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I've launched, have been part of

either leading, spearheading, or,

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or heavily involved in over 80 ETF

launches at three different ETF issuers.

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Um, and I think it's safe to say that I,

I certainly am, you know, have migrated

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away from, you know, hedge fund world,

um, to, you know, drinking the ETF

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Kool-Aid- … um, because of the wrapper.

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The, the, you know, the, all the

benefits that the ETF wrapper

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provides, not only institutional,

but, but retail investors as well.

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Um, you know, high-level overview of

AAM, we've been around since:

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Um, we are one of the few shops that are,

is really, you know, wrapper agnostic.

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So what I mean by that is we

have a bond broker-dealer arm.

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We have, uh, a very, uh, thriving

unit investment trust business.

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We have SMAs and mutual funds.

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Um, and obviously, I've been

spearheading the ETF business, which

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we've, we've organically been growing

out for the last eight years or so.

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I'm happy to report we have active

funds, passive funds, um, and, uh,

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we are on the precipice of reaching

a billion dollars in our ETF.

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So things are looking up.

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In 2025, we won the best, uh, uh,

mixed al- allocation ETF issuer under

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a billion dollars by ETF Express.

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So, you know, we, uh, we're in a

really good place, and we're looking

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forward to, to future success.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Lance, that's awesome.

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I love to hear about the

growth, especially in a, in a

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space that's so competitive.

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Um, so congratulations on the

growth of your ETF business.

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Second, sports, it's interesting,

y- when we started in the industry,

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you know, maybe the investment side

and sports, it,, it was clear-cut.

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They were two separate industries.

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Now, though, don't you,

they're coming together, right?

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Now, individuals, retail investor, you

gotta have money, of course, but now

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you can invest in professional sports.

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You can invest in different, you know,

maybe your favorite team through, private,

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uh, private investments, and so on.

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So- There you go.

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Now maybe they're not

competing either Yeah, the

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Lance: lines are…

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The, the, the, the line it's, it's,

it's definitely very blurred right

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now, a- and it's, uh, I expect

that to continue in the future.

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Absolutely.

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Ryan: Yeah, I do too, especially with

the advancement and the ev- innovation

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of private markets, and, and a lot of

these sports teams, they want money

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too, so maybe they're, bringing, getting

more exposure to investors, the regular

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investors to, to get that influx of money.

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So it is a very interesting time.

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Yeah.

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We could talk about that.

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We could have a whole

episode just on that lens.

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Yeah.

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But, um-

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Lance: Yeah

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… Ryan: you know, the sports card

market, it's exploded recently,

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and so too has ETF markets.

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It's kinda interesting how that the

growth has coincided with one another.

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There are now more US ETFs than

stocks, which is amazing to me.

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, Can you talk us through the parallels

or the, the similarities between the two

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markets, and does the growth in products

on both, on the sports card side and on

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the, ETF side, create noise for financial

advisors when they're looking for that

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perfect ETF, or somebody like me and

my son looking for that perfect holy

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grail of a investment or baseball card?

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Lance: You know what, it, it, it's

crazy, and I, I really hadn't been

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thinking about this u- until recently,

you know, until we started talking

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about how these two markets, uh,

are, are so very similar, right?

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Your, yourse- just like yourself,

uh, my, my son is, uh, 12 years old.

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He's obviously heavily in, you

know, into sports, and he's sort of

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gotten the itch with sports cards.

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And, you know, like you, I did, you know,

the casual collecting when I was younger

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and, you know, we're getting back into it.

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It's a great experience.

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But, you know, a- as you look about it,

like, these two industries are, um, you

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know, they're setting records all the

time and, and they're sustained growth.

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And when we think about the world

of ETFs, right, yes, the ETF has

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been around for 30-plus years,

but let's look at:

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We set record AUM levels in 2025.

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The market surpassed, I think, $13

trillion and brought in over $1.5

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trillion just in 2025 alone.

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And oh, when you look at 2026

numbers, we are looking to surpass

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those numbers going forward.

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So it's an area that's seeing

record-breaking growth, sustained

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growth, and when you take a step

back and you com- sort of compare

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it to the world of sports, right?

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I pulled some numbers here, and

I thought this was astonishing.

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Um, you know, back in 2024, uh,

the sports card market was $33.6

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billion, and there are estimates

that, that by:

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gonna get up to $271 billion.

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So when you talk about growth,

I mean, that is growth.

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Um, and I think when I think about

these two industries, what really

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sticks out in mind is, obviously we

sort of alluded to this already, is,

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um, the retail democratization and

the broadening of the participation of

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people that are experiencing or, uh,

utilizing these two industries, right?

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When we think about ETFs, it's all about

this innovative new wrapper that's low

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cost, tax efficient, transparency, and

you start off, um, with these index

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funds, and now you're moving into the

world of institutional investors and,

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you know, we've seen CAT bonds and

COCOs and, uh, CLOs and everything else.

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And then, um, you talk about the

broadening of the market, right?

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I mean, this is, this is really…

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They're, they're moving on

very similar paths, right?

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We talk about the ETF ecosystem, but let's

look about the sports ecosystem, right?

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You have gload- global trading platforms.

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You have, um, you, you

have licensed participants.

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You have, um, uh, like the

PSAs and the Becketts of the

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world that are doing grading.

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And at the end of the day, it comes

down to financialization, right?

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And these two industries started

off completely different, right?

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One is really about investing, and

the other one is childhood, uh,

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collecting, and now it's just a, a, a…

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it's, it's amazing what's going

on in both of these industries.

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Ryan: Yeah, you're exactly right, Lance.

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And in comparison, it's like in the

sports card world, you have distributors,

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and then you also have consolidation, a

lot like in the asset management space.

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It, it's consolidating.

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I believe Topps…

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It's amazing those numbers you

threw out there about the growth.

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Topps is owned by Fanatics, I think,

and now you're able to get sports cards

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and, you know, at Lids, and all these

retail stores are all over the place.

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The growth is there.

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It's, um…

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But with that growth, and like you s-

Like with ETFs The border, uh, the,

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the barriers to entry is pretty low.

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It's- Absolutely.

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Yeah … easy to, to launch an

ETF, and I think- Yeah … that

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has to do with all these new

firms coming out, new exotic ETFs.

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It's like, let's go for it.

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Lance: Yeah, and I think when

you think about the ETF rule,

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and obviously there, there's been

an explosion of launches, right?

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As you mentioned, the, the entry

to barrier, you know, has…

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The barrier to entry

has been lowered, right?

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And there has been this massive,

uh, growth of E- of ETF launches.

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But for the retail investor, for the,

even for the institutional investor, uh,

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it's making their lives very hard, right?

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It's hard to identify what, what is,

what is a legitimate offering compared

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to, you know, what is gambling, right?

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And I think about, you know, in the

ETF industry with the single name

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leverage stocks, auto callables,

like these things compared to, you

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know, if you wanna keep it in line

with sports cards, like, you know,

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the parallels and the, the case hits.

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Like, do you really have to open

up 51 hobby boxes that are hundreds

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of dollars each to find that one,

you know, whether it's a Kaboom or

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Downtown, whatever it may be, right?

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And so to some extent there's gambling

and, and that's why it, it, it's

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very hard for investors to identify,

right, what strategies and what, what

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cards should they be looking for.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Lance, in my household, my son who's-

… who's eight, we've gone from, all right,

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buying the hobby boxes, buying the…

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Looking for these one hit wonders,

like you said, the one of ones, these

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parallels, to like, you know what?

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Maybe this isn't the smartest thing.

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Maybe we- Mm-hmm … need to

just, like, go to a card shop.

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Yeah,

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Lance: exactly.

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And look for that

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Ryan: one card.

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Lance: Right.

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And that's very much in

line with investing, right?

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Because you have to be disciplined.

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We've done the same exact thing, right?

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Everybody's opening up the packs,

packs, packs, and next thing you know

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you're 30 packs deep and you have

all these commons and base cards, and

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you're like, "What do I do with this?"

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And I could have gone to the store and I

could identified, the strategy or the, the

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athlete that I wanted, and I can get a, a

graded card, and I know what it is, and I

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know it's, it's great for the collection.

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Um, so yeah, it's, uh,

it, it's very interesting.

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It, it's amazing how things happen,

but that's one thing that I preach

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to my son, is being disciplined.

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Knowing what you want.

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And same thing with your portfolio.

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Um, it's okay to value, you know,

have a, a slight value twist

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over growth or international

over gr- over e- uh, domestic.

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Um, but go in with a game plan, right?

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Uh, let's not gamble here.

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Let's do our due diligence.

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Let's create a game plan

and, and put together that

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portfolio that we really want.

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Ryan: Lance, you bring up a very

good point, and, in, in baseball

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cards or sports cards, we often

get those one-hit wonders, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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These players who had a great single

season, they get all these really

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unique cards, premium cards, and

then all of a sudden, you know what?

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They fade into obscurity.

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You never hear from these

players again, and this card,

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this cardboard is, is worthless.

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With the ETF equivalence of these

one-hit wonders, how can investors…

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Like you, you just said, how can investors

distinguish between the innovative fund

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that might have- Mm … staying power,

longevity, play for the long game,

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or just a flash in the pan thematic

play that might be gone in a year?

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How can financial advisors,

like you said, you and your son,

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you're being more specific on what

you're looking for How can you

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distinguish between the two of them?

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Lance: Well, I, I think it comes

down to, like I said before, it,

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it really is the game plan, right?

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What are you looking for?

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It's okay to gamble every once in a while.

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If you wanna take a flyer on a,

a Connor Griffin or a, a Roman

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Anthony, that's fine, right?

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Right?

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Uh, we can do that, but let's not put

all the chips in on those players, right?

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They, they may be the next Karim Garcia or

Brian Taylor for those New York fans, New

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York Yankee fans that are, are listening.

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Um, you know, but again, they may

be Ken Griffey and Derek Jeter.

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We don't know.

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Um, so really it comes down to doing

your due diligence, and this is

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something that we take very seriously

at AAM, specifically on the ETF front.

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Um, a- as we know, and I think

you've alluded to this many times

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in your podcast, is, you know,

the next phase of ETFs is very

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well going to be active managers.

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Over 85% of the launches, um,

in, in:

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But how do you, how do you gauge the

longevity of active ETFs that have

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only been in the marketplace for

six months, a year, maybe two years?

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And, and that's a real hurdle for,

for managers and issuers, especially

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like AAM, that cater to finding

boutique institutional managers and

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bringing them into the ETF wrapper.

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Um, and some of the things that we

do here at AAM to help navigate those

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are, it could be a 351 conversion.

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Maybe we've taken a strategy that

was previously in an SMA for five,

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10, 15, 20 years, and we convert

that into the actual ETF and utilize

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that track record so investors can

e, what did the manager do in:

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What did the manager do, um, during

these volatile times in the marketplace?

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Um, and sometimes that's

not always possible.

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Um, but there are opportunities,

you know, in some of our funds,

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like, um, uh, with LODI, right?

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W- it wasn't a conversion, um, but

we are able to use a composite of the

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same portfolio management team, of

the same exact strategy that has been

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successfully run for, for 10-plus years.

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So when you look at the short-term

performance and say, "Okay, this LODI,

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the AAM Low Duration Income ETF, is

performing exceptionally well in its

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Morningstar peer, uh, category, but what

has it done over the last 10 years?"

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And you can actually go to the

prospectus and the SAI and see a

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composite track record of that strategy.

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So these are some of the things that we're

looking to do to make the, the life and

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the due diligence of some shareholders

or prospects or potential investors, uh,

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be comfortable with some active ETFs that

may not have a, a very long track record.

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Ryan: Yeah, that's a very good point

because when I, do some research on some

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of these products, they might only have

a year, two years, and so it's hard work.

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I want more than that.

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I want four years of consistency, five

years of consistency, and go- bringing

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it back to sports cards, a lot of these,

like, like, I want the Tony Gwynn.

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I want the Cal Ripken,

who has the longevity.

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Yeah.

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Remember Greg Jefferies?

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Oh, Greg Jefferies.

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Greg Jeff- Everybody wanted Greg

Jefferies, and, uh, God bless him.

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Yeah.

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I don't know what happened to him,

but, um- I want that consistency.

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How, like, how can you find that

when, you know what, these new

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products, yes, it sounds great, this

auto-callable product, these buffer

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products, they sound fantastic.

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Lance: Mm-hmm.

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Ryan: But we've only had a bull

market, and- Mm-hmm … how can you,

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like, say, "Okay, if we're down 20%,

how are these new products gonna

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react when we don't have historical

precedence with these products to find

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out what they do in a bear market?"

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Lance: Yeah.

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Well, I would say some, some of

these products that we're mentioning,

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right, these are, some of them,

you know, in theory, they are

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rules-based and, and quant-driven.

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So it is a- you are able

to back test some of these.

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But for the active strategies, right,

the true active strategies, it's very

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hard to understand what an active manager

would have done in:

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So, um, it, it is very hard from

that aspect, and that's why we keep

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coming back to, how can we ease the

minds of shareholders, specifically

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with our active strategies?

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And as I sort of alluded to before is,

you know, at AAM, whether it's working

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with the team at Sawgrass or the team

at Brentview or Crescent Capital or, or

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SLC Fixed Income, these are firms that

have been around for decades, right?

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These are firms that specialize

in specific asset classes

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and specific strategies.

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So it's easy to sort of convey,

"This is what we've done," right?

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It may have not been an ETF, but

it may have been in a mutual fund.

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It may be an SMA, or it may

be a, a unit investment trust.

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Um, and, and that's what we pride

ours- selves on here at AAM, is finding

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the best of the best, finding the

institutional manager, um, that has a

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fantastic track record and strategy,

and bringing them to the world of ETF so

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the, so the masses, as we sort of touched

upon already, the retail audience, the

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institutional audience, um, you know,

and the individual brokerage account

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at Fidelity or Schwab, um, can also

purchase and access these tools, um, for

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their, you know, personal consumption.

338

:

So, um, it is hard, but there are

ways to, um, overcome that hurdle, um,

339

:

specifically with active strategies.

340

:

Ryan: Yeah, and i- it, that's one

of my favorite things about ETFs, is

341

:

the democratization, the innovation.

342

:

There, y- 10 years ago, Lance, some of

these strategies that are in e- the ETF

343

:

space, like option overlay strategies,

they weren't gonna be available for…

344

:

They weren't available

to the retail investor.

345

:

Now they are.

346

:

So that's helped them, allow them

to create different strategies

347

:

for their investment portfolio.

348

:

And at the end of the day, that's what's

most important, helping them achieve their

349

:

goals, whatever type of investment is.

350

:

But like you said, does that cause a lot

of problems here, especially when there's

351

:

not a long track record, longevity there?

352

:

Mm-hmm.

353

:

Cause some issues.

354

:

How can we get over those issues

and make sure the retail investor

355

:

knows what they're getting themselves

into, and making sure there's that

356

:

alignment between their objective

risk tolerance and that product?

357

:

Lance: Yeah.

358

:

And I, and I think on, on, on

that front, right, we always,

359

:

you know, we were talking about

hitting singles and doubles, right?

360

:

And, and we can take shots, right?

361

:

We can take, you know, if somebody

wants to, you know, quote-unquote,

362

:

"gamble" in their portfolio to some

extent, and that's probably the worst,

363

:

one of the worst words I can use.

364

:

But if they have a preference on something

and they, they have high conviction

365

:

in something, you know, it's okay to

use some of these products, right?

366

:

To, to sort of tilt your portfolio to

the, to your view, uh, views in terms

367

:

of where the market may be going.

368

:

But, you know, i- in, uh, in my, in my

view, the way that, you know, we have

369

:

constructed our portfolio, it's about

hitting the singles and doubles, right?

370

:

I know everybody wants to

hit the home runs, right?

371

:

But what happens when you're the Yankees

and, and unfortunately, that long ball

372

:

isn't there in the playoffs, right?

373

:

And, you know, you have Toronto that's

playing the small, small ball and

374

:

advancing runners and, you know, having

sac bunts and, and doing everything it

375

:

takes to get, you know, runs on the board

and, a- and, uh, you know, win ball games.

376

:

Um, so, you know, there's

some things that we can do.

377

:

Obviously, you know, when we look at, you

know, what differentiates ETFs from the

378

:

other, it comes down to strategy, right?

379

:

Is the strategy very much in

line with what you're, what

380

:

you're trying to achieve?

381

:

And, um, you know, I, I, going

back to, to our sons, it, it really

382

:

is common sense and being very

deliberate a- and having, uh, a lot

383

:

of discipline i- in your process.

384

:

And it's no different of going out

and, you know, trying to purchase

385

:

a sports car or putting together a

well-balanced allocation of, you know,

386

:

ETFs or other, you know, asset vehicles.

387

:

Ryan: Yeah, you're exactly correct.

388

:

And I talk a lot about consistency, the

importance of consistency in investing

389

:

and making sure, a more consistent,

uh, historical return by a manager

390

:

allows your clients to sleep better

at night knowing that this is what

391

:

we're gonna get from our manager.

392

:

Not gonna get a lot of home runs.

393

:

You're not gonna get a lot of strikeouts.

394

:

But those singles and

doubles, they add up.

395

:

Absolutely.

396

:

Compounding returns, Lance.

397

:

That's it.

398

:

There's a reason why it's so important.

399

:

Lance: Exactly.

400

:

Exactly.

401

:

Ryan: But you know what?

402

:

Everybody likes the home runs, and-

403

:

Lance: Yeah

404

:

… Ryan: and, and they're

fu- I think I read, um…

405

:

There's an article about, and we

talked about this, about the…

406

:

I can't think of his name right

offhand, but Chicago White Sox-

407

:

He's a star from Japan, but all

he does, he either hits home runs,

408

:

strikes outs, strikeouts, or walks.

409

:

Mm-hmm.

410

:

And that's what he does,

and people love him.

411

:

Everybody wants his card because he

hits home runs, his batting average.

412

:

Like today, remember

when we were kids, Lance?

413

:

Anything over 300 was

a good batting average.

414

:

Yeah.

415

:

How many players now have a

batting average of over 300?

416

:

Lance: Yeah, I think the, the MLB batting

average is probably, again, I don't

417

:

know the numbers, but it's probably

the lowest it's ever been, right?

418

:

Because, you know, people are…

419

:

People grow up and, you know, my son

plays a lot of travel ball, and it's all

420

:

about hitting the ball hard in the air.

421

:

It's, and not, not advancing runners,

not hitting line drives, getting the

422

:

ball in the air and hitting it hard.

423

:

Um- Mm.

424

:

Yeah.

425

:

It's, uh- Yeah.

426

:

Singles and doubles, um, it's

a, it's a thing of the past.

427

:

Ryan: Yeah, and- In sports … for

the folks that are big

428

:

basketball fans, same thing.

429

:

It's either a three-pointer,

you want threes, or dunks.

430

:

The mid-range game is gone.

431

:

Um-

432

:

Lance: Exactly.

433

:

Exactly … for

434

:

Ryan: the most part.

435

:

Lance: Can you imagine if there was

a three-point line years and years

436

:

ago, what these guys would have…

437

:

The numbers that they

would've been putting up- Oh

438

:

it's just ridiculous.

439

:

Ryan: Yeah, exactly.

440

:

Exactly.

441

:

So with that, do…

442

:

why do you think concepts like longevity

and consistency take a backseat when

443

:

these new, we say hot rookies or,

um, these new shiny ETF strategies,

444

:

they garner all the headlines.

445

:

Why do we sometimes forget about

the importance of consistency

446

:

and longevity when all these new,

fun strategies are coming out?

447

:

Lance: You know, I, I, I think, um,

I think both of these industries,

448

:

you know, from a marketing

standpoint, have really evolved.

449

:

The marketing efforts of both

ETF issuers and sports, you

450

:

know, sports card companies ha-

has really been on point, right?

451

:

You don't have to go further than

TikTok or other areas of social media

452

:

to see these advertisements of, you

know, targeting the younger generation

453

:

and, you know, "Oh, look what I just,

you know, look what I just pulled.

454

:

Everybody sees what I just pulled."

455

:

But they didn't know that you just

spent thousands and thousands of dollars

456

:

for a, a few hundred dollar card.

457

:

Um, and I, I think you see that on

the ETF side as well, and this is, you

458

:

know, this is an industry that I've

been part of for, for 20-plus years.

459

:

And, um, whether it's a, a flashy

ticker or a new strategy or whatever

460

:

it may be, right, um, the barriers

to enter, e- e- entrance, uh, have

461

:

gone so low- Um, that almost anything

can come to mar- a, a, well, a, a

462

:

lot of things can come to market.

463

:

Um, and I've seen products that, in

my view, have been, you know, fairly

464

:

poor investment vehicles, but marketed

exceptionally well, um, and have

465

:

gone on to raise a lot of assets.

466

:

So I think marketing has, has, has

a role in this, and I think the, the

467

:

marketing, you know, arms of these,

these industries are, are certainly

468

:

getting better at raising awareness.

469

:

Um, so I think that's, that's

certainly one thing to, to think

470

:

about, is the marketing aspect

of, of both of these industries.

471

:

Ryan: Yeah, you are spot on.

472

:

The market, especially, within

ETFs, it's so competitive.

473

:

The space is so competitive.

474

:

Marketing's gotta get very unique,

uh, interesting to, to- Exactly

475

:

capture the eyes, but-

476

:

Lance: I mean, how do you, how do you

decipher, you know, the 60th Bitcoin

477

:

from the first Bitcoin launch, right?

478

:

I mean, yeah, of course, we can look

at expense ratio and trading volume and

479

:

spreads and these things of that nature.

480

:

Um, but at the end of the day, the…

481

:

in, in theory, the strategies are,

are nearly identical if they're,

482

:

if they're rules-based options.

483

:

Um, so it really comes down

to a, a marketing angle

484

:

Ryan: And to me, for all the financial

advisors out there, I also think if, you

485

:

know, focus on the relationships too.

486

:

Like you said, Lance, the products,

there's not a whole lot that might

487

:

separate product A of product B.

488

:

Mm-hmm.

489

:

But focus on the relationships because

I think at the end of the day, that

490

:

relationship that you have with an

asset manager, with their, distribution

491

:

team or portfolio managers carries a

lot more weight than maybe, um, couple

492

:

basis point difference in the- And

493

:

Lance: that, that, that is a fantastic

point that you mentioned, Ryan, and that's

494

:

something also at AAM we cater to because

we are, we are, uh, in our stable of,

495

:

of sub-advisors on the ETF side, right?

496

:

We, we put together the best

possible mix we can, and we

497

:

have access to these portfolio

managers on a daily basis, right?

498

:

So we are able and willing to roll out

the red carpet for prospects and, you

499

:

know, I'd love to get a phone call.

500

:

You know, I have a, a few clients

that would love to understand, you

501

:

know, this strategy more, and we

can, we can help you with that.

502

:

As well as help- helping on

the capital markets front.

503

:

How, how can we get into the strategy?

504

:

How can we get out of it

as efficiently as possible?

505

:

Or answer any other questions they have,

may have around asset allocation and, and

506

:

how does this strategy work with this?

507

:

And, you know, help the financial advisor,

uh, as much as po- uh, as we can, right?

508

:

At the end of the day, that, that

is AAM's slogan, like empowering

509

:

financial advisors to succeed.

510

:

And, and that pretty much sums it up.

511

:

Ryan: Yeah.

512

:

And that's perfect because…

513

:

And it goes back to just the,

the amount of noise out there

514

:

and all the different products.

515

:

I get confused, Lance, and- Mm-hmm … I

have a hard time understanding

516

:

some of these very unique products.

517

:

So that education, hand-holding,

because that's what can differentiate

518

:

an asset man- the different

asset managers and products.

519

:

Because they said the

performance is very similar.

520

:

How does it impact the portfolio?

521

:

Those are the things that are important.

522

:

And going back to marketing, I, in sports

cards- It, it was interesting, I didn't

523

:

watch a whole lot of the NFL draft, but

those top players that are drafted- Yeah

524

:

did you see, as they, they were-

Yeah … signing the Topps Now cards.

525

:

Yeah.

526

:

Speak of marketing.

527

:

One

528

:

Lance: of, one of, one of, signing it

on the floor and then handing it off.

529

:

Ryan: Yeah.

530

:

Speak of, I've, I bought too

many of those Topps Now cards.

531

:

And it's like, what am I doing with these?

532

:

But again, it goes back to my

son, "Oh, you'll like this."

533

:

And I was just, like, amazed, like,

Topps, at like how their marketing has

534

:

Lance: changed.

535

:

Absolutely.

536

:

They, they've, they've really found

a way to drive people to buy the

537

:

cards, and, and, um, you know, th-

they're accomplishing it, right?

538

:

Uh, kudos to them as, you know, they

put in a, you know, a, a hit every,

539

:

you know, like I said, 81 hobby

boxes, and people are gonna continue

540

:

buying them and searching for them.

541

:

Um, so they, they've done a great job.

542

:

Ryan: Yeah.

543

:

I don't know about you and your son,

it is, even though it ends up being a

544

:

loser's game, we've got some good cards

in hobby boxes, but- Mm-hmm … there

545

:

is that part of just having fun with it.

546

:

It is.

547

:

There's nothing like ripping, 30 packs

and, um- , for you and I, we have a

548

:

different viewpoint than our sons.

549

:

They might get a, a decent

card and get all excited.

550

:

Yeah.

551

:

I get excited over, like, oh,

we got a, um, Aaron Judge.

552

:

They want the, they want the-

Yeah … , like you said, the Connor

553

:

Griffins, the, the Kevin McGawles

of the world and stuff like that.

554

:

Mm-hmm.

555

:

It's like, well, I'm pretty

happy with a Mike Trout.

556

:

Lance: Yeah, I, I'm

okay with M- Mike Trout.

557

:

I think his cards are gonna come back.

558

:

I think, uh, you know, a top

10, top 15 MLB player of all

559

:

time is, he's gonna be okay.

560

:

He'll be okay.

561

:

Ryan: And it goes back to longevity.

562

:

He's not the sexy pick right now.

563

:

He's having a great season.

564

:

But gi- give me a Hall of Famer

who's, might be- Absolutely

565

:

a top 20 player versus,

yeah, um, Connor Griffith.

566

:

He's fun, Roman Anthony.

567

:

But, um- Mm-hmm … I don't know.

568

:

I like, I like, maybe it's because

we're older, we like those- … I

569

:

don't know But, um, great conversation.

570

:

So, let's talk about,

are there something…

571

:

We just talked about Mike Trout

or, these longer players who've

572

:

played a long time, holding value.

573

:

Are there, in the ETF space, in the

investment space, some qualities that

574

:

maybe investors should look more for?

575

:

Yeah.,

576

:

That might not be the sexy pick, might not

have the crazy names to it, but during-

577

:

Mm-hmm … this market landscape, there's

volatility that maybe fares well over

578

:

the long term and is, has more, long-term

potential than some of these- Yep

579

:

flash in the pans.

580

:

Lance: Yeah, and, and I think one

thing that we, you know, one thing

581

:

that we focus on here at AAM across,

you know, almost all of our product

582

:

lineups is, is income generation,

and we are true believers in that.

583

:

You mentioned, you know, elevated

levels of volatility, uncertainty.

584

:

You know, we are, we are believers

in that, you know, the benefits

585

:

of, of dividends and, and income

is really, you know, important

586

:

for long-term capital appreciation

and also risk mitigation as well.

587

:

And, you know, I'm not comparing,

uh, you know, dividend-paying

588

:

stocks to Mike Trout.

589

:

Um, but at the end of the day, right,

I think we all know the benefits

590

:

of dividend investing, right?

591

:

You know, look at the

Fama French data, right?

592

:

Higher dividend-paying stocks outperform

the broad-based market over time.

593

:

If you go back to the '50s or

even earlier, over the last 100

594

:

years, you know, some numbers

have dividends accounting for

595

:

over 50% of the total appreciation

of, you know, major broad-based

596

:

industries like the S&P 500, right?

597

:

So when you look at dividends, you

know, and, and this is what's really

598

:

interesting about product development

and product creation, and this

599

:

goes, goes, sort of goes back to

my, my thought around common sense.

600

:

A- and how can we capitalize

on dividends, right?

601

:

We know the benefits of dividends.

602

:

We know we want, you know, high dividend

payers, but we also know that we wanna

603

:

avoid dividend cutters as well, right?

604

:

And it's kind of, okay, well,

that seems logical, right?

605

:

If I want high dividend payer, if

I want a high dividend portfolio, I

606

:

should probably look for companies that

are producing a high dividend yield.

607

:

But in order to mitigate the risk of

dividend cuts and, and eliminations,

608

:

let's, let's try to, how can we minimize

our exposure to dividend cutters?

609

:

And the, and the, the, the idea

there is, let's look at free cashflow

610

:

because if a company is creating

free cashflow, they have the ability

611

:

to grow those dividends over time.

612

:

And so you sort of get the best of

both worlds, and that's, you know, to

613

:

summarize it, that's, that's one of the

strategies that we have here at AAM,

614

:

is we're targeting high dividend payers

that also has dividend sustainability.

615

:

And without getting too far off

track here, but to keep it in

616

:

the realm of sports- I ran the

numbers on the PGA Tour yesterday.

617

:

If you just look at, you know,

what's important on the PGA Tour,

618

:

if you wanna, if you wanna win on

the PGA Tour, of course you have

619

:

to do everything really well.

620

:

But if you do two things exceptionally

well, and that's drive the ball very far

621

:

and putt very well, chances are you're

gonna be a very good tour player, right?

622

:

I'm not looking at, you know,

shots gained off the tee.

623

:

I'm not looking at proximity to the hole.

624

:

I'm l- not looking at, you

know, up and down percentage.

625

:

If you just look at those two stats

alone Driving distance and putts per

626

:

round, and you take 25 of the best

people on tour with those two, you're

627

:

gonna get eight out of the top 10 FedEx

money, uh, point leaders right now.

628

:

So again, we talk about sort of

having a focus, know what to focus

629

:

on, avoid the noise, and chances

are you're gonna be okay if you

630

:

stay that, if you stay that course.

631

:

And I, I thought that was really an

interesting concept, how to, how to

632

:

sort of create and, and utilize the

benefits of dividends, um, because

633

:

that's an area that we think is, uh, o-

obviously utilized by many investors.

634

:

Ryan: Yeah, Lance, that is such a great

way to wrap up this conversation because

635

:

I do think with all the noise out

there, we overcomplicate some things.

636

:

Absolutely.

637

:

Just like you said, we overcomplicate

it, and, um, it could…

638

:

A lot of things can, in

investing could be simpler.

639

:

But, um, Lance, awesome conversation.

640

:

Real quickly, we have about a

minute, what's your favorite

641

:

sports card that you have?

642

:

Lance: Ooh, that, that's a tough one.

643

:

Um, I do have the '86-'87 Fleer

basketball set, including a PSA 8

644

:

Jordan, which is kind of the Holy Grail.

645

:

I think that that is…

646

:

You know, but I don't know

if that's my favorite.

647

:

That's obviously the most expensive.

648

:

Um, in terms of my favorite, again,

it's not the most expensive, but

649

:

I recall when I was, you know, my

kids' age, 11 or 12, the first…

650

:

One of the first cards I ever

ought with my own money was a:

651

:

Whitey Ford Bowman rookie card,

and the card is in awful shape.

652

:

It's been folded and creased in four.

653

:

I can guarantee you it's been on

many, many bicycle spokes in the '50s

654

:

and 60, '60s, but it's just cool.

655

:

It's just awesome.

656

:

Um, and, and for that reason,

it's probably one of my favorite

657

:

cards, even though it's obviously

not one of the most valuable.

658

:

Ryan: You know what, Lance?

659

:

I agree.

660

:

I also have the Jordan rookie card.

661

:

I went to a card shop, I think I was

like 12, traded a bunch of cards for it.

662

:

I've had it since I was 12.

663

:

Oh.

664

:

It's not like…

665

:

It, it's probably like a six or seven, but

I'd agree, it's probably not my favorite.

666

:

Recently, my, my son loves the history

of baseball, just loves it, and

667

:

we've found a, a cheaper Roger Maris-

668

:

Lance: Ah

669

:

I

670

:

Ryan: don't know, in the '60s,

and it just brought him so much

671

:

excitement thinking, "Oh, my gosh,

I've got a Roger Maris card."

672

:

He was so excited.

673

:

It, it's just- Awesome … you

know, and a Willie Mays.

674

:

It's those older cards that

675

:

Lance: No, that's what it's about.

676

:

Are great.

677

:

That's awesome.

678

:

Ryan: Yeah.

679

:

Awesome, Lance.

680

:

Real quickly, where can our, uh,

audience get more information

681

:

about Advisors Asset Management?

682

:

Lance: Yeah.

683

:

If they'd like to learn more about

AAM or our ETF lineup, they can visit

684

:

our website at www.aamlive.com/etfs,

685

:

and you'll see all nine of our ETFs.

686

:

And, uh, obviously,

feel free to reach out.

687

:

We're happy to help however we can.

688

:

Ryan: Awesome, Lance.

689

:

Really fun conversation.

690

:

We brought in sports, something that

we're very passionate about, and ETFs.

691

:

I love it.

692

:

Really fun conversation.

693

:

Thank you so much for coming on

and sharing such great insight.

694

:

And thank you everyone for

listening to this episode of

695

:

Zephyr's Adjusted for Risk podcast.

696

:

You can watch all of our other

episodes on the Zephyr YouTube channel.

697

:

And lastly, please give us a

follow on Zephyr LinkedIn page

698

:

to learn more about Zephyr.

699

:

Thank you so much, and have

a great rest of your week.

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About the Podcast

Adjusted for Risk
Your weekly guide to timely market analysis, investment strategies, wealth management tips, and engaging discussions to empower investment professionals
Hosted by Market Strategist Ryan Nauman, Adjusted for Risk brings together financial markets, investments, economics, wealth management, and life to help investment professionals make sense of what's happening—and prepare for what's next.

Ryan sits down with industry leaders, investment experts and thought leaders to explore the trends driving markets and influencing investor behavior, from ETFs and SMAs to portfolio construction, AI, the economy, and the evolving wealth management industry.

Expect insightful conversations, actionable ideas, and a fun, engaging approach to the topics that matter most to financial advisors, wealth managers, portfolio managers, and investment professionals.

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Ryan Nauman

As Zephyr’s Market Strategist, Nauman provides thought provoking analysis and research on market trends across asset classes, sectors, and regions to help empower better asset allocation strategy decisions. His ability to navigate complex market dynamics and identify emerging trends has made him a trusted voice among investors and industry professionals alike. He is an accomplished investment strategist who has spent the last 22 years in the investment management industry ranging from working with plan sponsors, managing the investments of retail investors, and providing actionable thought leadership to investment professionals.
Ryan Nauman is the host of the popular Adjusted for Risk and Inside SMAs podcasts. He is a well-respected investment industry strategist regularly featured on Charles Schwab Network, Yahoo! Finance, Bloomberg TV, Bloomberg Radio and Chuck Jaffe’s Money Life podcast. His opinions and market expertise have been published in Reuters, CNBC, Bloomberg, MarketWatch.com, Yahoo! Finance, and the Wall Street Journal.
Prior to joining Zephyr, Nauman served as lead Investment Manager for a large financial planning practice. He also spent several years as an investment analyst conducting manager due diligence and creating mutual fund lineups for over 100 Plan Sponsors while overseeing $1 billion in defined contribution plan assets.